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hiptothat
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![[*]](./images/xpsilver/default_icon.gif) posted on 7/21/08 at 07:33 PM |
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Founding fathers of Corbina on da fly
I know this has been talked about before but the details are hazy to me.
It would be great to get the story straight since we are in the midst of the season.
So who was it that caught the first Corbina on the fly and who are the founding fathers?
What years are we talking about and how far have we come?
Another thing of interest... I spoke to some newbies and offered tips on catching Corbina.
It was funny after I thought about what I said. To the uninitiated it probably sounded like trying to throw a penny into a thimble.
I think a lot of us Corbina addicts are a bit jaded in a perverse way.
Par for the course is one take or a fish a day and we think nothing of throwing a hundred or more casts to achieve such little reward.
Our little nitch in the fly world (to me) is world class fishing especially in terms of technical ability of the angler.
That's all I have to say for now, we are in it...
Enjoy jon
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bill
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| posted on 7/21/08 at 07:52 PM |
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So Jon,
For clarification are you talking "sight casting" for Corbina? And stocking?
This, I think, is newer then just out blind casting.
bill
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Jim Solomon
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| posted on 7/21/08 at 08:33 PM |
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Jon: Nick Curcione? Ned Gray? Bulla? I do not know the answer. I all know is that in 1986 I bought a 10wt. Fenwick 9' fly rod, reel, and lead core
line from Ned Gray and tried to catch a corbina with it. I snagged one and that was it for me until 2003. I really did not know Ned but he was the
guru at the time I started tasting salt water fly angling. Is this world class angling? Yes, to me it is. Today we got alot of shots at these fish
especially when they were in pods. I bet between us four anglers we probably put the fly in front of alot of fish and there were only three hookups.
If I were in the Keys and had the amount of shots at bones that I had with the beans today I would have hooked more bones. Maybe I am nuts but who
cares. To me this is my ultimate game that is accessible and engages me the most. I was telling Al that on Henry's Lake last week, my friend Jeff and
I boated approx. 17 fish amongst 30 boats at the Targee Creek outlet. No other boats got close to us. I attribute this success to the focus developed
from corbina angling. You cannot disengage at any moment with the Bean or else you are out of the game, period. You scratch your nose, blink your eyes
and it can be over. Yes, we are in it and I will be down again hoping for a tight line. I am a complete addict and perverse in all ways. And I am a
proud of it. One thing I learned today - once you hook a bean, drag it away from the pod and don't go running down to the water to fight it or you
will spook the rest of the hole. And just put the fly right on the edge - the fish are closer in than you think. Grin. Jim
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bill
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| posted on 7/21/08 at 08:40 PM |
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Jim, you are so right on, on they are closer then you think. They just ride the water up to 4-5 in. It is amazing how close they are.
But when did you actively sight fish them in skinny water?
bill
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 07:01 AM |
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good question!
Great question Jon - I have always wondered that myself.
Nick Curcione will be a speaker at the opening of the new
SD Fly Shop store in Temecula this Saturday. I'll ask him.
I have a Fly Fisherman article on fly fishing the surf in California by
John McKim, can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure it was dated
1984. He mentions corbina among the species they caught.
One of my fishing buddies Bernie Fink lived in Del Mar, and fly
fished the surf and bay
alot - up to 5 days some weeks if the fishing was going good.
He passed away early this year but he said he had been fly fishing
55 years - fished with Nick Lyons in NY in his teens.
He told me they used to catch corbina all the time in the
surf, and quite a few of them, but I think he did alot of conventional too in his early saltwater
years. I don't know for sure,
but I would not be surprised
if he had caught corbina on the fly in the late 1970s.
And of course, there are the crusty old guys who you run across who
don't give a damn about the internet and bulletin boards who have
been quietly fly fishing the surf for many many years. Almost surely the first
guys to fly fish in the surf in SoCal or Baja caught a bean or two just by chance.
Regarding sight fishing for
beans in the skinny, Bernie told me not to bother with them because they
wouldn't bite. Seems like this was very common thinking until much
more recently.
I'd be interested in what Gary and Hanley have to say about targeting beans in particular, and sight fishing for them...
Steve P.
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Tim P
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 07:20 AM |
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This July 2000 Fishing Report written by Gary hints that
Gary and Terry Baird were sight-fishing them around 1991-92.
This Hula Fly
Description indicates a time frame of 1994 for that activity.
i'm sure Gary can add a little more color to this.
i haven't done any research in this area; there may well have been other (fly fishing) sight-fishing attempts earlier. It stands to reason that surf
(bait) anglers have tried sight fishing for corbina since light-tackle surf fishing got its start. ( i doubt it would have happened with 14' rods
and 3 oz. Pyramid sinkers! )
tim
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Shane Chung
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 08:31 AM |
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Jon,
Ken Henley knows the answer to this question. Ken and I have had some great discussions on this very topic. I will let Ken give his historical
overview of our perverseness.
This stuff started way back in the 70's or so, with Nick C. in the middle of it all. There are other names too that I'm sure Ken will fill in. The
core of it up north started with steelhead fisherman taking what they know into the surf.
Shane
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Caldy
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 08:48 AM |
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I was gonna say I bet the steelhead guys had a lot to do with it. It's almost the same rig for them.
Almost all of us started fly fishing in fresh water and then migrated to the surf. I grew up fishing in the SoCal surf with my dad but never on the
fly until after I had taken up fly fishing in the eastern sierra in my mid twenties...and then not with any consistent luck until I started reading
this board four or five years ago.
I was amazed to find out while Jon was on my boat on the striper quest that he began fly fishing in the surf...and has since gone into freshwater.
C-
"We are the people our parents warned us about..."
Jimmy Buffett
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ondafly
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 12:38 PM |
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Ned Grey perhaps! He was doing it in the fifties and sixties! There were a bunch of surf pioneers in the San Diego area in the 50s and 60s as well
that never got credit.
Nick Curcione popularized the SoCal surf fishing through his articles in the 70s.
Q
"The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of mens lives the hours spent in fishing"
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 01:37 PM |
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SD
Whitey Perry owned a fly shop in SD as late as the 1970s.
Unfortunately, he passed away in the late 70s or early 80s but he would
definitely have known who was fishing the surf. The current
ranking fly shop people are the Strouds but they didn't enter
the scene until the mid-1970s I think.
Maybe someone in the SD Fly Fishers knows what was happening
in the SD surf before the 1970s. It will be interesting to check around.
Steve P.
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paul
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| posted on 7/22/08 at 07:01 PM |
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Definitely cool stuff in this thread. Keep it coming
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Hanley
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 07:59 AM |
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Excellent question Jon. There are some solid posts here with names of anglers well deserved in the association of developing the corbina hunt. I've
been blessed to be able to fish with many of them. Nick, Gary, Terry, etc. They have all become good friends.
I've been working on an article about the history of FF the West Coast surf zone. As with any history lesson, the research is long and the
information is most always incomplete (people move, pass away, drop out of the scene). Confirmation of the info is even more difficult.
The overall surf scene is easier to trace. Keep in mind that west coast surfin' with flies is really a small group of dedicated anglers (I know we
think we are legions strong), but compared to other FF pursuits surf zone anglers are a drop in the bucket. When you look further into sight casting
for beans, the number of anglers drops down to almost nothing (yes we have hundreds of folks who enjoy the game). Does anyone here think we have more
than a thousand people FF for beans? I've never been able to substantiate that kind of number. My point is that the growth in this specific arena has
come about slowly because of the lack of anglers (compared to trout, bass, salmon, etc).
Having said all that, we can trace the sight fishing for beans FF game back to the 70's easily. And yes, Nick Curcione was indeed a major force in
this endevour. Though I was FF the surf in the early 70's, I entered the bean scene in the early 80's. Nick was my inspiration for sure.
I'm still working on folks who may have been instrumental back in the 60's and 50's, but they are much harder to confirm. I have no dout "Q" is
correct when he said there are many unsung pioneers in the San Diego region. Confirming who the first angler was to catch a bean with a fly is proving
to be a tough history lesson...so far...but I'm not done researching.
West Coast surf zone fly fishing is an awesome pursuit. I love or legacy. I'm honored to be a part of it. It's important to remember it because it
provides us with a sense of place, space, time, and players. It's all good for the soul!
Cheers, Ken
There are no shortcuts....no...shortcuts...no...
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 02:38 PM |
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Nick Curcione reply
Hi all,
I sent a message to Nick Curcione to tell him that the garybulla boys
were discussing who was first to catch a corbina on a fly, and who
was first to catch a corbina on a fly while sight casting. He
was nice enough to send the following reply yesterday:
I'm always hesitant to use the word 'first' because even the most thorough research (I was a sociology prof in my other life) may not uncover all
the facts.
I caught my first corbina on the fly sight casting in the surf about 100 yards south of Hermosa Beach pier back in the fall of 1973. There were fish
cruising back and forth on a sand bar and I finally got one to take an early version of my beach Bug. I remember I was using a fiberglass Fenwick
8-weight and an a Medalist reel with a lead core shooting head. I told Dave and Freddie Cox ( I don't know if they're still alive) about the catch
and they told me that as far as they knew this was a 'first.' They knew Ned long before I met him back in 1973 and when I first spoke to him at a
Pacific 1 Saltwater Flyrodders meeting I attended, he told me that he hadn't heard of anyone taking one on a fly prior to that. I also took my first
white sea bass on fly from the surf on the Pacific side of Baja about 50-miles north of Guerro Negro in 1975. I'm starting to feel ancient.
Nick
Nick's first point about the difficulty in uncovering all of the facts is
a good one.
Steve P.
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 02:43 PM |
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Conway Bowman reply
I emailed Conway the same question but asking for info focussed on SD. Conway
grew up in SD and knows the scene pretty well:
His reply:
It may have been sam nix or whitey perry.
They were some of the fist guys who fished the salt with the fly.
Conway
I see on Amazon that Sam Nix published the book Saltwater Fly Fishing Handbook in 1973.
Steve P.
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 02:49 PM |
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Doug Uyematsu reply
I asked Doug about his history with beans.
Here is his reply from yesterday:
Steve, I caught my first corbina on a fly in the early eighties. My first was on a scaled down Merkin permit fly in the surf near the Oceanside pier.
I don't know when Rich got his first but I think I met him while chasing them in Alamitos Bay in the mid nineties. The day I met him I had caught a
22 or 23 inch white seabass early in the morning and nothing else. He said that he caught a couple of small halibut and nothing else. He showed me
his rig with 20 or 22 feet of tippet that we have since been using. We fished together a couple of times a week for a few years till he got too busy
with his business. I talked to him on the beach last year and he told me that he only gets out fishing a couple of times a year now.
Doug
Great window into the genesis of Rich Jacobsen's long leader bean fishing,
and an early use of the merkin on beans!
And yes, to know me is to be peppered by me with fly fishing questions at
sporadic intervals - sorry about that guys.
I've got to say that everyone is always very gracious about it!
It's all about the journey, not the destination.
Steve P.
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Mike Bennett
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 03:08 PM |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there has been a little "evolution" recently with Corbina techniques in the surf. I've been at it for about
eleven years, so I'm "new" compared to guys who blazed the trail in the 70's, but my sense , when I initially started, was that "sight" fishing
for beans was accomplished by reading water, seeing fish active in the spots you knew they should be feeding and then "sight casting" to the spot
and presenting a bug on a tight line in the small zone you anticipated the active fish to be feeding; sort of like fishing to rising trout. It seems,
in the last several years, that individual fish, or groups of fish, are being stocked and the bug is presented to the fish, or group of fish, and the
bug is observed being followed and eaten; more like bone fishing or permit fishing. I think I had more success with sight casting to spots where I
knew fish were feeding, but I've really enjoyed trying to pick off individual fish and seeing the take.
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Tim P
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 03:39 PM |
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Steve -
Thanks for being the conduit for a response from each of those guys. A lot better system than everyone asking independently.
Wow - who knew the Merkin was bustin' beans that long ago!
At the moment, it looks like we're looking to SD county for an earlier report... that seems easy to believe.
tim
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hiptothat
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 07:45 PM |
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Now that I think of it my dad use to hike/dive for Abalone at Sunset Cliffs (San Diego) with a guy named Doc. My dad along with the other divers were
your basic DIY crew making there own ab irons, water proof backpacks using rigid frames and plastic kitchen trash cans.
When I started fly fishing the surf my dad said Doc was fly fishing in the surf back then and this would it put him in and around the early 70's.
I like to know who was first but highly interested in who pioneered our current methods of sight fishing for Corbina in the open surfline.
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Jim Solomon
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| posted on 7/23/08 at 08:28 PM |
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I was just thinkin about the Long Beach Casting Club which has been around for a long long time. Since there are alot of beans in the LB Alamitos Bay
area, in fact the DFG down in LB did a study of the corbina yeara ago, maybe there might be a connection. Steve P can you pose this questions to
Doug? Jim
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Dean
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 07:40 AM |
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I should contact Steve Fernandez and ask him if he recalls anything from Ned Gray.. Steve worked at and Tyed flies for Ned's Montrose shop back in
the late 70s ~ early 80s and might have talked to him about the Surf at times....
Ned was Working the Surf back in the Mid '60s.. Designed the Original Deerhair backed Sandcrab pattern in the late 60s.. (If I recall
correctly)...
It would be Great to see Ken's History and origins of Surf Flyfishing here in So Cal...(Or the entire West Coast for that matter)
I have a Copy of Kenneth Bay's Saltwater Fly Tying Book from the Early 70's and it does mention afew So Cal Saltwater/Surf patterns.. mentions
Corbina in afew of the descriptions as to species the fly works for...
I like the Information and History that is being Posted in this thread... Gotta Know One's roots...
"America, Just a Nation of 200 Million Used Car Salesmen with all the Money we need to buy Guns. And No Qualms about killing anyone else in
the World who tries to make us feel Uncomfortable" ~ Hunter S. Thompson
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Tim P
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 08:04 AM |
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Dean -
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dean
I have a Copy of Kenneth Bay's Saltwater Fly Tying Book from the Early 70's and it does mention afew So Cal Saltwater/Surf patterns.. mentions
Corbina in afew of the descriptions as to species the fly works for... |
Got any page numbers for the corbina references?
(Unfortunately, this one hasn't been scanned by Google Books - yet).
This book was published in 1972 by Lippincott; ISBN 0397009399
Amazon lists a bunch of used book dealers selling them for about one penny ... plus four bucks for shipping.
Salt Water Flies - Kenneth E. Bay (Amazon)
tim
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Steve P.
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 09:15 AM |
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Jon - info on the new style?
I've got to concentrate on work today- yep still have a job (I think) - but I've got some info that I would like to share later.
Jon started the thread and really wanted to know how the
current style of sight casting for beans came about.
I would bet
that pieces of it have all been done before for other species, in other
places - sight casting for carp in Europe,
for largemouth bass,
for bonefish, tarpon, trout at Henry's Fork and other spots, redfish,
striped bass, and on and on. Currently, sight fishing is done on all
coasts for some species or another, right? Don't know the history of those but
I'm sure sight fishing for trout is an especially old game...
Fly gear good for the surf game has been around a long time, and
trout gear would do in a pinch anyway, so that wouldn't
have prevented guys from applying lessons learned to beans in SoCal,
or Baja (or Chile? isn't there a corbina species in Chile too?). It would
be surprising if some trout guy didn't try for beans in SoCal a long time
ago - if you spend any time at the beach, you see them in the skinny.
Maybe not.
Some things get passed down or recorded in books, others get reinvented.
I tagged along with Paul, Tim P and Gary last year and
have a good idea what Jon regards as the current state of the
art in sight casting for beans, but maybe not.
But since most of us haven't attended the L.A. School
of Sight Casting, it would be cool if Jon could lay out for us the details
of the current approach to sight fishing for beans so that we're
all on the same page.
By the way, I can honestly say that I have never been called a
conduit before - ha ha!
Thanks!
Steve P.
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ondafly
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 11:28 AM |
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steve:
read my article in may/june issue of ffsw and that will outline it for ya
Q
"The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of mens lives the hours spent in fishing"
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Hanley
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 02:34 PM |
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Say hey Dean and crew,
As Nick basically stated in his response -- research is a difficult road. It takes more time than most are willing to invest. It often creates more
questions than answers (that’s a good thing in my mind because it takes us deeper into the process). A major goal is to “confirm” content. Without
working towards a stringent deadline that allows us to keep the quest alive and perhaps uncover another gem of information.
The history of fly fishing the West Coast Surf Zone is an area I’m really drawn towards. It’s such a unique part of our western angling heritage. It’s
also such an eclectic approach to the fly game that it certainly was, and still is, mostly a fringe pursuit compared to other species/habitat
concentrations. In today’s environment however it’s certainly gaining interest by many new to our sport. The surf zone also provides a venue for
anglers looking to expand their local opportunities afield (more now with rising gas prices). The last twenty years just may have seen the greatest FF
growth in participation along our beaches.
I need to qualify my approach to the research I’ve been conducting. I’m not interested in the folks who may have cast “once on the beach because it
was a novel thing to do.” Heck anybody could cast in a bowling ally once because it was novel. Rather, I’m looking to confirm the individuals who made
a commitment to the surf arena; those fly fishers who took time to explore the zone and work with tackle & techniques to expand the game. I’d like
to celebrate the folks who targeted what were new or uncommon gamefish in our sport back then. That’s our legacy in my way of thinking. That’s also
the tougher road to confirm names and dates. But I love the quest just the same. The folks mentioned in this thread are good examples of excellent
resources.
I’ve seen posts on boards where people state our saltwater fly fishing heritage goes back to the 1800’s. Perhaps it does. Does that include
California? Does that mean the angler was “targeting” surfperch, corbina, YFC or halibut while on foot? That still needs to be verified if possible.
Saltwater encompasses much more than our surf game and there lies the crux of our research. In order to know who the “Surf Zone” pioneers were we need
to put them in context. Not all saltwater anglers work the surf. We really have a cool niche in this fly fishing lifestyle.
Sorry for the long winded post I better give you a breather. Let me finish by saying that I’m very careful in trying to give credit where credit is
due. I want to be as accurate as I can. I have no doubt there were individuals exploring our surf zone that we’ll never know about. I have great
respect for the people who put in the time and effort to make our angling life a rich tapestry.
With respect, Ken
There are no shortcuts....no...shortcuts...no...
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hiptothat
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| posted on 7/24/08 at 08:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve P.
I've got to concentrate on work today- yep still have a job (I think) - but I've got some info that I would like to share later.
Jon started the thread and really wanted to know how the
current style of sight casting for beans came about.
I would bet
that pieces of it have all been done before for other species, in other
places - sight casting for carp in Europe,
for largemouth bass,
for bonefish, tarpon, trout at Henry's Fork and other spots, redfish,
striped bass, and on and on. Currently, sight fishing is done on all
coasts for some species or another, right? Don't know the history of those but
I'm sure sight fishing for trout is an especially old game...
Fly gear good for the surf game has been around a long time, and
trout gear would do in a pinch anyway, so that wouldn't
have prevented guys from applying lessons learned to beans in SoCal,
or Baja (or Chile? isn't there a corbina species in Chile too?). It would
be surprising if some trout guy didn't try for beans in SoCal a long time
ago - if you spend any time at the beach, you see them in the skinny.
Maybe not.
Some things get passed down or recorded in books, others get reinvented.
I tagged along with Paul, Tim P and Gary last year and
have a good idea what Jon regards as the current state of the
art in sight casting for beans, but maybe not.
But since most of us haven't attended the L.A. School
of Sight Casting, it would be cool if Jon could lay out for us the details
of the current approach to sight fishing for beans so that we're
all on the same page.
By the way, I can honestly say that I have never been called a
conduit before - ha ha!
Thanks!
Steve P. |
Hey Conduit P., Al's article has a great info on what we are up to in La la land.
I'll just add few more things from my perspective.
Ven diagram courtesy of the Tim Postel estate
Steve, when I think of LA style sight fishing from a tactical point of view the above pic is about as good as it gets for us.
This picture illustrates Tim P masterful Ven diagram above to perfection when all the conditions collide for some epic sight fishing.
The pic is from a old post I did to show Corbina sight fishing tactics.
The red was the path of the Corbina. The black is the direction of the current.
The orange was my flyline / bug and the arrow is the short swing to feed the awaiting Corbina. Obviously the fish is in your line of sight the entire
time which increases all your fishing senses gunning for these fish.
It's funny but a seasoned Bean hunter up here has some of the same charecteristics as a good hunting dog. I can watch from way up the beach and tell
you if any of the regular bean chasers have a fish in their sights. The obvious is someone who takes off running down the beach.....
Typically though, someone who is working a fish or pod will have their head down, back hunched, slightly crouched over at the waist with their knees
bent. Basically a six foot guy walking through a four foot tunnel. The rod is pointing low at the water and a slow methodical strip is being applied
watching for the take.
If things are looking really good like a big pod is tracking toward your fly you may find yourself holding your breath.
To know the stance, those few seconds of pure focus awaiting elation or disappointment is what sight fishing for Corbina is all about for us.
This is the inner body experience you don't get blind fishing for Corbina.
Below is a pic of great low light conditions when we are casting at pods that are pushing wakes or shamelessly teasing us.
You guys have these conditions in SD where the surf meets the turf.
If anything that has changed a bit over the years it's adopting a more aggressive attitude as a viable tactic for getting a hook up. It is not that
uncommon now to drop a fly on a fishes nose and instead of having it run for it's life it eats the bug.
One last thing that may give some insight to the current state of my mind and maybe others here who actively sight fishing Corbina is achieving what I
like to call the "hole in one" of sight fishing. Also known as a no fight Corbina. This is where you see the Corbina eat your fly at the edge of
the waters edge, in the skinniest of skinny. Upon hook set it freaks out on a tight line and shoots himself on to the beach or the water recedes and
you dare to hold him there until he is dry docked on the take.
Great info everybody...jon
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