new to fly fishing the salt - questions on rod/line set up

[katsfood]

Here is a question that comes up very often and I thought the answers were so thorough that it is worth keeping it up top for reference. Gary

I am hoping to get some info on setting up my fly rods for the salt. I have been fishing freshwater, mainly moving, for awhile but am new to the salt. The two rods I am currently setting up are both Sage XI2's - one is an 8 weight and one a 6 weight. Both are 9 feet. I will mainly be fishing in Southern California between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara. The spots I will mainly be fishing in are the surf, from jetties, from a kayak around the kelp beds, and occasionally from a boat.

My first question is in regards to the general line I would usually be using, especially in the surf. I am thinking of setting up both rods with Rio Outbound or a similar line. Working off of the specifications for the Rio Outbound line should I be getting an intermediate head with a floating running line for the surf? Or should I be getting a faster sinking head (faster than intermediate at least) and an intermediate running line? I know that depends probably on how quickly the grades under the water drop off and what depth the fish usually hold at and what I am fishing for. I know that you want at least part of the line to sink in order to not get washed back in the surf as much but is an intermediate head fast enough sinking for getting down in the surf and is it right then to have the running line be floating?

My next question is regarding shooting heads. I am also planning on setting up both of those same XI2 rods with shooting heads, probably the Orvis Wonderline head system or the Rio Riomax system. I may be fishing more in the surf than anywhere else since it is easiest to get to and am wondering what weight of shooting head over my rod's specified line weight I should be getting. I have heard of going one line weight up and I have heard of going two line weights up. Both rods are fairly fast and stiff. Does going up one line weight with the shooting heads give enough extra weight to load fast rods and to get the head moving with so little weighted line to work with? Or would you recommend going up two line weights? If you did go up two line weights are there any negative aspects to that? I'll be using a variety of heads - intermediate, sinking, fast sinking, etc...

If anything it would be great to just hear what some of you use as your set ups as far as line and if you are running multiple spools what types of line are you running on each - floating, intermediate, floating with sink tips, shooting heads, and what you use each for.

I'm not asking for your top fishing secrets but for at least enough information to keep me from wasting money buying the wrong lines starting out.

While you are at it any recommendations on backing for salt would be appreciated as well.

Comments or recommendations would be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Shane Chung]

The main line I use for 99% of my surf fishing is a 300g (integrated sinking line which is a factory manufactured shooting head system) for a 8wt., and a 200g for the 6wt which I use mainly for trout. 300g is pretty standard for and 8wt. and 200g or 250g for a 6wt. I have a floating line that is lined up one rod weight, but I really use that for non surf applications. As for sight casting to corbinas, I use a floating line or a clear tip intermediate 7wt. line on the 6wt.. This way I can load the rod faster with less line out for quick fire casting. By the way there are big dibates over running lines. Theory has it that the intermediate running line would be best, but actually a thinner diameter running would perform just as well. I have both floating and intermediate running lines on my integrated lines. It just was a matter of who I bought the line from (SA, Orvis, Rio or Airflow). Now all of my lines are Rio and Orvis. Personally I just adjusted to the running line. I really did not notice much of a difference.

Intergrated sinking lines will be the main line you will be using in the saltwater. You can also use the floating line and longer leader for bays, sight casting to corbina or spot fins, reef shore lines, top water jettie action or top water stuff through the kelp stringers. Intermediate lines can be used for everything in the shallow water slow presentation (i.e suspended) game. Mainly if you main game is bays and surf get the integrated sinking line, and then your second line would be a floater or intermediate.

Lastly now I fish the surf with my 10wt. just because it is lighter that any of my 6wt.. I throw a 400g on it, and I can pretty much fish in some really knarly conditions now. By the way my biggest croacker came on the second day of the first storm of the season last winter (09).

Shane

[paul]

I use a 6wt xi2 and an 8wt RPLxi in the surf.
On the 6wt, I've used 250gn streamer express line with intermediate running line for years.
I have used 300gn streamer express on the 8wt for years as well.
SA makes both lines with a clear tip as well, but for most surf situations you want to get down quickly so I rarely use clear intermediates except for really calm waters chasing halibut.
Up here in Santa Barbara and Ventura areas, I have not run into a situation yet where I was wishing I had a floater.
Never say never, but I can't think of where I would want one up to this point in time.

Shooting head wise, you can get some running line and some T8 or T11 and make your own heads for relatively low cost. Just use braided loops on both ends and loop them together. Good to go.
You can also get clear intermediate heads from RIO if you want to carry those in a wallet to switch out heads in the field.

-Paul

[Tim P]

Both Shane and Paul covered it pretty well.

In this stretch of the coast, in the surf - a type VI or VII fast sink head will be your weapon of choice 95% of the time, so I would start with that - whether you are talking about a shooting head or a integrated line. And given the time of the year, I would just get your 6 wt set up and start fishing as soon as possible - you can put off decisions about the heavier rod for a while.

I started off fishing with a 9 wt rod years ago, and I am slowly over time finding out the things that lighter rods are capable of, so I most fish now with a fast 6 weight (Scott X2S) + 240 gr type VII head, and intermediate sink running line. (A few weeks back I C&R'ed a 25# leopard shark, tail hooked, in about 12 minutes with the 6 wt).

Note that if the surf is higher, such as in the winter months, I will switch to an 8 wt (and older Scott STS) and about 300-320 grains. You simply need more weight to control your drift as the surf gets heavier.

There is one specific situation that I am aware of where a Type III could come in handy: fishing for mid-column species such as YFC over rocks, with a sinking fly. But even in this case, you can get by with a Type VII and a quick pace to the retrieve.

There are some sharpies in LA county that use intermediate heads when making distance casts for corbina - this allows for extremely delicate presentations to fish in thin water. However, part of that fishing style depends on the behavior of fish that only a few beaches in LA county are able to elicit from the fish. (I have seen corbina behaviors in LA county that I have never seen even once in VC or SB County, and that has very much to do with both water temperature and beach slope.) So, the fishing style up here is a little bit more "up close at the edge of the beach" in slightly sloppier water with more current, so even though a fast-sink head is less stealthy, it has presentation control advantages in heavier current over an intermediate-tip head.

As far as uplining goes, one of the differences about casting a fast-sink head is that - due to its thin diameter and reduced drag - you can develop much faster line speeds than with an equivalent-weight floating line, and this corresponds to more rod loading on the back cast for the same line weight in a floating line. (And having said that, I see that using 240 gr. on a 6 wt rod is "uplining by 3"; hey, what can I say - that Scott is a mighty fast rod).

Since you are planning on doing the shooting head thing anyway, you might consider buying a standalone running line (SA or Airflo) and 34' of T-8 for the 6 weight - and chop the head back one foot at a time to see what grain weight you like. All things considered, T-8 is inexpensive. It doesn't cast as well as a tapered head, but it will give you a good idea what kind of grain weight you prefer.

Backing? If you thought you would only use that spool for the surf, then for sure I would say "Just use 30# Dacron which is spliceable, such as Cortland's Micron". If you were going to have the reel/spool do double duty, say fishing from a boat in kelp beds, it can be nice to have GSP's kelp-cutting capability.

hope that helps

tim

[Richard Cullip]

I can't add much to what's been said already. Paul, Tim and Shane have covered the tackle requirements quite well. That being siad, heres how I do it.

I bring two rods with me when I fish the sandy beaches btwn San Diego and Santa Barbara.

The one I love fishing the most is a 4wt (TFO Jim Teeny model) rod loaded with 150grn SA Wet-tip Express. This is an integrated line with a fast-sinking tip (25 ft long) mated with a floating running line. I loved this combination when fishing mild surf as long as I hit the beach early in the morning before the wind starts blowing and time my trips for days with relatively small surf.

However, if the surf is up and/or the wind is blowing, I'll leave my 4wt in the truck and use my 6wt (TFO Jim Teeny model) rod. I've loaded the 6wt with Rio's Custom-cut Outbound line with the T-8 head cut back to 30ft. This gives me a 30ft long 240 grn fast sinking ltip integrated with a thin intermediate running line. I also use this 6wt combo when fishing San Diego Bay out of my float-tube.

[Steve P.]

The previous posts covered it very well.

Just 2 thoughts to add about winds and starting out.

Regarding winds, I also use a 6 wt (TFO TiCRX) with a 200 or 250 grain Streamer
Express fast sink line for most of my surf fishing. However, I fish mainly in the
early morning while offshore breezes are blowing. I would probably be using
an 8 wt with 300 grain line if I regularly fished in the afternoon when the wind blows inshore. Also, when the waves are bigger, I often throw an Airflo Depthfinder 300 on my 6 wt (the TiCRX can handle it easily). I like intermediate running lines for surf fishing.

Regarding starting out,
it takes some time to get used to casting clousers while standing knee deep in waves and surge exposed to variable winds. Line control and timing waves are key issues. A heavier 300 grain line and
matching 8 wt outfit makes it alot easier to get the fly out and down for a controlled
retrieve, as opposed to having the line dump at 20-30 ft and ending up wrapped around your legs or washed past you up the shore into the nearest kelp wad before
you have a chance to control slack and make your first strip.

So, I'd go 8 wt rod reel and 300 grain line for starters.

Be safe out there. Don't turn your back on the ocean, don't wade more than knee
deep, and if you get a tangle, back up onto the sand to work on it. Have
fun out there,

Steve

[Shane Chung]

Originally posted by Steve P.

Be safe out there. Don't turn your back on the ocean don't wade more than knee deep, and if you get a tangle, back up onto the sand to work on it. Have
fun out there,

Steve

Piper is an expert on wading deep. You should have seen him at the One Surf Fly in Ventura;? By the way did anyone mention that a striping basket would be good? You can either use a store bought one or one made from a rubber maid tub. If you make one just make sure your belt has a quick release buckle.

Shane

[Steve P.]

ha ha ha... Piper says "wade as he suggests, not as he does". He learned this risky wading behavior from Shane Chung...

Stripping basket - best deal out there is the 11.5 qt Rubbermaid dish pan in medium blue (or white):

http://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-2951-0 ... B0000DINEX

($5.99 at your market or RiteAid, a dead ringer for the Orvis stripping basket $59),
cut four 1 inch slots in it for a nylon web belt with a quick release buckle, and
if you have Done-Lap's disease (belly done lap over your belt), cut off the lip
that rests against your waist and rasp it smooth to avoid cutting line. To give
line control, drill small holes
for 3" lengths of weedeater mono or buy the black plastic 9-cone insert made for
Rubbermaid dishpans that striper guys use on the East Coast
(for example here: http://www.artsnflies.com/pages/basket1.shtml ). Lots of guys drill 3/4"
holes in the bottom and sides of the basket - I have never found the need (and
without holes the basket
makes a great float if you get into trouble wading deep like Shane).

Steve P.

[bmatthews]

On one final note, all the info is spot on!

My I suggest a half day with one of the local guides, Al Q, Shane C, Lee B, Gary (sic) etc are all outstanding and can really help with the learning curve.

I find it is a great investment.

tight Lines,

[katsfood]

You guys are all fantastic! You probably saved me a lot of time and money trying to figure this stuff out on my own. That's not even counting the frustration of trying to fish with the wrong setup which you guys have helped me to avoid. Now I just need a few more spools so I can try a few of those line setups out. I'm up in the Ventura area and so will be fishing mainly near to there. It is such a long drive to get up to the trout fishing spots I like to go to that I thought I would give the salt a shot. It looks like it could potentially be just as exciting.

As I said I have both an 8 and a 6 weight 9 foot Sage XI2 and a 9 weight 9 foot Sage RPLX. For fishing the salt in our area will I need anything beyond that? It sounds like the 6 and 8 weights will have me covered for the surf but will I need something bigger for out on a boat or in the kayak around the kelp beds? I know some people use lighter rods as well in the surf but I think I will stick with the 6 weight for now.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Daniel

[Tim P]

Daniel,

Others mentioned it, but I'll repeat it for emphasis: a stripping basket is an absolute necessity for blind casting in the surf (basically everything except up-close corbina sight fishing). Whatever you get, make sure it has cones or something sticking up from the bottom of the basket.

As for spare spools, you'll save yourself some money if you go the loop-to-loop route with shooting heads; that pretty much eliminates the need for spare spools.

While we are on the subject of spare spools, you might want to keep in mind the fact that saltwater is pretty abusive - if you were thinking that you were going to use a reel that you already have some spare spools for, you're gonna be pretty bummed if the frame gets corroded - then all the spools are no good as well (if you can't replace the frame).

In that case, a better idea would be a reel that is dedicated to the saltwater, and a loop-to-loop shooting head setup. That might be a better idea anyway if the reel you have on the 6 only holds a small amount of backing. (I would suggest something which holds a minimum of 125 yds).

tim

[Shane Chung]

Orvis has just started a sale on the Battenkill Large arbors, where you buy one reel and you get one free spool. Check it out with Erick at artful Anglers or give Dave / Jacob a call at Orvis Pasadena. I'm pretty sure Eric can help yu out without having you drive over the hill.

http://www.orvis.com/store/product_dire ... t_id=21511

Shane